I've been having trouble with some ideas on economic justice, so I went to my secret stash of genius chatters. These people don't screw around. OK, wait... they do screw around (a lot!) but when it comes to discussion they practice great principles: They're reasonable, rational, even-tempered, and they have a habit of documenting what they're saying with arguably solid sources. That's something I'm honestly trying to emulate, but the truth is I'm lazy and they're a lot smarter than me. Until I've improved my ways, it's probably better I just get them going and then sit back and learn.
...there aren't ten million rich people...Last night I was lucky enough to recognize and seize the opportunity to sway conversation and get the help I needed. Notice that they're already on a related subject - I think this really helps. By some miracle it occurred to me at just the right moment that this could be my chance.
<friida> if you have 10 million poor people who want healthcare, and 10 rich people who don't want healthcare, you should give the people healthcare
<coney> friida, that would be that whole general will thing
<ControlFreq> That's an invalid scenario. What we have is ten million poor people who have no insurance who want 10 million poor people to have health insurance v. ten million rich people with health insurance who don't want 10 million poor people to have health insurance.
<friida> there aren't ten million rich peopleRich people? Ooh! Now's my chance to attempt a shift away from healthcare and toward economic justice in general.
<nine> what is it? the richest 800 americans own like 60% of america's wealth?
<nine> something crazy like that
<ZShurp> hmmm, something like that nine, but let me see if I can find the figure.
<nine> i'd love to find documentation on that
...let me see if I can find the figure...
These people are a powerhouse of interest and follow-through. I suspect they'd started looking from the moment I'd posted the first question because the results were rolling in within seconds.
<coney> nine, are you thinking of this: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/18/rich-people-own-much-money-half-world-report-says/y6az3Wtasd5TIf9Q6k3I4K/story.html
<coney> nine, or this one: https://www.thenation.com/article/20-people-now-own-as-much-wealth-as-half-of-all-americans/
<ZShurp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States -- 5% own 62%
<ZShurp> so 5% of 300 M is 15M.
<ZShurp> The "Next Nine Percent" of Americans owns 38%
<ZShurp> The Top One Percent and the Next Nine Percent are about even. And then the bottom 90% have about as much as well
Look at how ZShurp has laid out a set of facts taken from a source he provided reference to. In contrast to the vague "something like" I'd proposed earlier, he gives credible evidence that most people would probably accept - and he has a plan for it, too. Watch him go straight from the facts and figures to the calculations.
<ZShurp> So there you go, that's a good definition of class society in America. The bottom 90%, the next 9%, and the top 1%
<ZShurp> Let's see... 38% of 65T divided by 9% of 300M is how much per person to be Middle Class ?
<ZShurp> Ahhhh... OK, so the average middle class wealth is $900,000... per *person*. A middle class family of 4 has $3.6M.
<ZShurp> An upper class family of 4, by contrast, has $33 M
<ZShurp> And a lower class family has $230K on average....without fuss, he begins to lay out his thinking...
At this point ZShurp hasn't really made his plan clear, so it's understandable that coney's a bit taken aback. Notice how she handles it, though: There's not even the hint of personal attack, but rather a strong expression of incredulous surprise followed immediately by the laying out of the facts she intends as arguments against his organizational claims.
<coney> ZShurp, what world do YOU live in?
<coney> The median wealth of those younger than 35 is just $6,676. The median wealth for those older than 75 is $155,714. Here's the complete breakout by age group:
<coney> ZShurp, at the peak worth age in the US, 65-69yo, median net worth is 194,226 which includes the worth of your home, your car and the cash value of your retirement accounts
Coney does relate some good facts, but ZShurp is on a different and unexpected track. Succinctly and without fuss he begins to lay out his thinking.
<ZShurp> coney, I live in the real world, where *class* is a political division in society, and "middle" means "between".
<ZShurp> The people who have $3.6M per household constitute a *class* whose political power is substantial and who stand between the rich and everyone else.
<ZShurp> coney, I'm talking about middle class, not median wealth
<coney> you are talking numbers that put both what you call the middle class and what you call the upper class into the top quintile
<coney> https://www.thebalance.com/american-net-worth-by-state-metropolitan-4135839
...she'd never expect someone to "just believe her"...Not yet satisfied, coney has made an objection and again provides a link to reference material. Nobody has to ask for that. She'd never expect someone to "just believe her". She's ready with it! But ZShurp clears the matter up quickly. He's providing a different (and very useful) perspective:
<ZShurp> coney, top quintile? I'm talking about much higher, the 90% to 99%. They have as much wealth as the top 1%, as much power as the top 1%, and their political interests are not the same as the top 1%.
<ZShurp> 0-90, 90-99, and 99-100 are the class divisions in society by power block.
<nine> so you're calling 90-99 "middle class"?
<ZShurp> yes, nine. Assuming by "class" we're talking about politics and power, rather than the fantasy that the common man actually has any say in his government.
Look how he goes right to the heart of the matter: Politics and Power.
...even more important is what coney does: She lets him!ZShurp was never distracted by the standard class definitions because they don't help to illustrate his point (and in fact are deceptive). What he actually does - and this is important - he takes the time to answer coney's concerns while simultaneously sticking firmly to what helps clarify his thinking: how money equates to political power.
Perhaps even more important is what coney does: She lets him! She's paying enough attention to what he is saying to realize that he's on a different track; that he has a different kind of perspective to share...
And boy does he! Look at this comparison chart that shows the classes as ZShurp has reorganized them. The differences in separation are staggering, especially when broken down further in the image below.
| Class | Percent | Range | Proportion | Avg$/Family |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Top | Top 1% | 99-100 | 1/3 | $35M |
| Middle | 2nd 9% | 90-99 | 1/3 | $900K |
| Low | Low 90% | 0-90 | 1/3 | $230K |
...they haven't finished scooping up all the money...Now the time had come to consider the implications of all this, and what could be better than a graphic to help illustrate the data?
<ZShurp> The bottom 60% are basically irrelevant. The 60-90 constitutes the third power bloc.
<ZShurp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States#/media/File:If-us-land-mass-were-distributed-like-us-wealth.png
<friida> ZShurp, do you know what that means?
<friida> it means they haven't finished scooping up all the money, so they are still hard at work doing so
<ZShurp> friida, they're working at it, yes, but civilization will collapse. They can't push it much farther
<friida> once they perfect the A.I. robotics, all the jobs will disappear, and soon so will all the people who they needed to work those jobsThey own -0.9% of the global wealth...Finally, loot jumps in with yet another interesting (if disturbing) perspective in the form of a reference link and a summary of it's interesting points.
<loot> http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/02/the-costs-of-inequality-when-a-fair-shake-isnt/
<loot> America today appears to illustrate this process in action. Though the wealthiest 20 percent earned nearly half of all wages in 2014, they have more than 80 percent of the wealth. The wealth of the poorest 20 percent, as measured by net worth, is actually negative. If they sell all they own, they’ll still be in debt.
<loot> Harvard divides it in 80/20
<loot> The Harvard study also shows the bottom 40% have negative money.
<loot> They are in debt.
<loot> That's how they survive.
<loot> They own -0.9% of the global wealth.
<ZShurp> Good point, a lot of the wealth of those on top is debt owed by those underneath...
<ZShurp> coney, it makes you wonder how the lower two quintiles get by
<coney> ZShurp, lots of people in the lowest quintile live with their parents and eat on food stamps, or are effectively homeless migrant workers
<loot> They just die.
<loot> The Harvard study also shows the bottom 40% have negative money.
<loot> They are in debt.
<loot> That's how they survive.
<loot> They own -0.9% of the global wealth.
<ZShurp> Good point, a lot of the wealth of those on top is debt owed by those underneath...
<ZShurp> coney, it makes you wonder how the lower two quintiles get by
<coney> ZShurp, lots of people in the lowest quintile live with their parents and eat on food stamps, or are effectively homeless migrant workers
<loot> They just die.
On that cheery note, the conversation dies, too. Truly it is a dire situation, but it's a blessing to shed some light on it.
<ZShurp> well, it appears I've managed to flood the channel into silence. Sorry about that
<nine> lol no
<nine> i'm actually taking and arranging notes
<nine> this is like goldmine night for nine
It's a goldmine for sure. The subject matter was only part of it. The real blessing is in being able to participate in a conversation with people who are willing to put in the work of finding resources, making calculations, presenting alternate points of view, and - most especially - to really listen and give consideration to each others' ideas. I belong to the lower class by both the ZShurp and coney scales, but when it comes to accessing great political discussion I feel quite rich.References
- https://www.thenation.com/article/20-people-now-own-as-much-wealth-as-half-of-all-americans/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States
- https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/18/rich-people-own-much-money-half-world-report-says/y6az3Wtasd5TIf9Q6k3I4K/story.html
- https://www.thebalance.com/american-net-worth-by-state-metropolitan-4135839
- http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/02/the-costs-of-inequality-when-a-fair-shake-isnt/
More Links
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality
- http://www.cesj.org/learn/definitions/defining-economic-justice-and-social-justice/
- https://www.ted.com/talks/james_b_glattfelder_who_controls_the_world
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